Disclaimer: Some YEC readers have “gently reminded” me that not all Young Earthers adhere to the position I’m criticizing.
Considering that Young Earthers attempt to read an obviously non-literal passage of the Bible as if it was meant word for word, it’s not surprising that their claims often end up being a little eccentric. And while people who are familiar with evolution, science and the Bible may sit back and ignore the creationists’ antics, the layman may actually fall for their tricks.
Even more dangerous is when a non-Christian is persuaded by these people that their doctrines actually represent those of the Bible! A non-believer will almost surely reject Christianity out of hand, or some people may be ensnared by creationist claims, only to wake up to how false they are at some point in the future. At that point the dangerous possibility exists that the convert will reject Christianity itself because they built their beliefs on a false and shaky foundation.
It’s for this reason that all Christians should unite against Young Earth Creationism and expose the foolishness of its teachings. Fortunately for us Theistic Evolutionists, the Young-Earthers often expose their logical fallacies without us even having to raise a finger.
One example of just such an occurence happened around my birthday two years ago when a couple actually donated the world’s finest fossil specimen of one fish eating another fish to the museum that Answers in Genesis founded. For such a travesty to happen near the day of my birth was certainly a slap in the face to me, but fortunately I get the last laugh because that fossil the AiG folks treasure so much actually undermines a major creationist doctrine! Not to mention that it shows how rampant Orwellian Doublethink is amongst even the most celebrated authorities on creation.
If you are familiar with the origins debate, you will no doubt be aware that YECs1 believe that most if not all of the world’s fossils have their origins in the Great Flood of Noah. They also believe that animals never ate each other until after the flood, when God explicitly decreed it acceptable to Noah. Genesis 9:32 they say, is the Biblical record of carnivory’s origins.
Unfortunately for them, a fossil created during the Flood showing carnivory would ultimately be the death knell of this belief. Evolutionists (and other Old Earthers) believe that fossils were made thousands to millions of years ago- way older than the Flood and thus the alleged Divine “go-ahead” given to pre-carnivorous animals to finally begin eating meat. Young Earthers believe that fossils were created during the Flood which is still older than God’s giving permission for carnivory.

Thus this prized fish specimen is a major problem for creationists. How could there be any fossils demonstrating carnivory if carnivory didn’t exist until after all the fossils were created? There is no way around this. The implications are that either carnivory existed prior to the Flood, or that this fossil was made sometime after the catastrophic event.
There seems to be a little bit of disagreement among creationists as to whether or not the Green River Formation where these fossils were found actually was formed by the Deluge, but even if it wasn’t, there are still many hundreds of fossils that show evidence of carnivory. Everything from Allosaur tooth marks on Diplodocid tails, to tooth marks on ammonite shells, and then of course, that famous specimen of a Velociraptor with its claw plunged into the belly of a Protoceratops, their struggle for survival frozen in stone.
The claim that most fossils are of vegetarian, pre-Flood animals does not hold under scrutiny. Either the biggest portions of the fossil record were created post-Flood, or carnivory has been around since the beginning. The implications for creationist doctrine are big, whichever path you take.
It is a fossil in exquisite detail of a fish caught in the act of swallowing another fish—this could not have been a slow event. Whatever happened had to be a catastrophic event—consistent with the Flood of Noah’s day.
Thus saith Mr. Ham. Now how can anyone in their right mind justify believeing that carnivory didn’t exist until after the Flood at the same time that they recognize the existence of a fossil recording a carnivorous act taking place during the Flood? The cognitive dissonance must be astounding.3
A proper, less literal understanding of Genesis, is the solution to to the conundrum of pre-Flood carnivory. Using science as a guide to fill in details that the Bible doesn’t elaborate on is a proper way of learning about the past. Melding a scientific understanding of Earth’s history together with the Bible ultimately yields an accurate synthesis of the world’s beginning.
Edenic animals were indeed vegetarian (or else naked defenseless Adam would be in big trouble!), but the Bible gives no detail on the dietary habits of animals outside of this general vicinity. It’s for that reason that we rely on secular sources like the fossil record, sources that clearly indicate that carnivory had been around ever since life forms were advanced enough to eat each other.
It may seem a travesty for such a beautiful and important fossil to end up in a creationist “museum,” but what at first seemed a travesty may end up being a very good thing. God can use evil to accomplish his good purposes in this matter in the same way he did when Joseph was sold into slavery. Hopefully this obvious contradiction to creationist doctrine on display in a creation museum will cause someone to wake up to the foolishness of YECism. This person can then stop posing a threat to the spread of the gospel with their weak-foundationed evangelism, and can shift their focus of their witnessing where it belongs: with Jesus, not any particular understanding of Genesis.
Footnotes!
1 Just try to pronounce that! Sounds like an exclamation of disgust to me. “Yeck!”
2 “Every moving thing that liveth shall be meat for you; even as the green herb have I [God] given you all things.”
3 Honesty compels me to inform you that I could not find a statement on Ken Ham’s beliefs about when carnivory originated except that it was sometime after the Fall. That being said, many of the less “prestigious” creationist web sites I’ve found have indeed stated that they believe carnivory began after the Flood. I just don’t want you to think I was trying to build a straw man argument or misrepresent Mr. Ham’s views if it’s ture that he disagrees with these other creationists.




May 29, 2007 at 4:25 pm |
i dun getit ^^;
May 29, 2007 at 5:45 pm |
Some creationists have said that animals were vegetarian before the Flood that Noah escaped on the Ark, and yet also said that fossils were created during the Flood.. Despite this, when they see fossils of carnivory in action (proof that it didn’t start after the Flood) they still see these fossils as being supportive of their beliefs.
August 6, 2007 at 9:38 pm |
And what were the 6-8 inch teeth of the tyransaurs-rex for?
“Cracking cocanunts”!!!!
The creation museam makes me sad.
August 28, 2007 at 7:48 am |
I think you misunderstand the nature of the Fall (and what the Bible teaches). I have yet to read any YEC literature that claims carnivorous behavior didn’t begin until after the Flood—in fact, the consensus (and the fact that God killed the first animal to cover Adam and Eve’s sin) is that carnivorous behavior began after the Curse, which was many, many years before the Flood. God explicitly allowed Noah and his descendants to eat meat (probably because the degeneration of the genome had gotten so bad as to make meat necessary), but that does not mean that people weren’t already eating meat against God’s will. After all, God tells us not to steal, but people do (Christian and non-Christian alike). Nature was already red in tooth and claw long before the Noahic covenant. Secondly, the Flood only formed most of the fossils, not all, which means that some have been formed in local catastrophes post-Flood. Most fossils, as a matter of fact, show evidence of rapid burial in repose and in evidence of asphyxiation etc. The fish fossil that you cite is a prime example of that, since the fish obviously did not know it was about to be buried. Rapid deposition of sediment makes much more sense in a young-earth/Flood model than in a gazillions-of-years one.
As for sharp teeth proving anything, let us not forget that pandas have sharp teeth, and yet, they do not eat any meat—at all. Lions have been known to be exclusively vegetarian. Anatomical features do not prove diet.
The reason that we YECs believe that there was no death before the Fall is because if God used death and suffering (tumors, diseases) to create the world we see (a world He called “very good”), he would be a wicked god indeed. In fact, the god of an old earth is not the one that’s described in the Bible. When people add evolution to the Bible, they are ascribing characteristics to God that make Him seem to be evil. I have seen time and time again how the belief in an old earth and evolution not only puts doubt into peoples’ minds about the need for Christ (if there was no literal Fall, then there is no need for someone to save us from that Fall), but also causes them to outright reject the Good News. But when they believe that the Bible is true and literal (and that they need salvation), they are much more likely to listen. Far from hurting the spread of the Gospel, YECism has saved many (including me, a former atheist).
I pray that you will believe what God says and not let it be a stumbling block for you.
August 31, 2007 at 12:09 pm |
Good post Aby.
Whacha think about the new Ben Stein “documentary” on Intelligent Design?
You are Marshal.
August 31, 2007 at 5:03 pm |
YEC: Thank you for your thoughtful response. It deserves an equally thoughtful response, which I, unfortunately, don’t have the time to write now. I’ll attend to you as soon as I can.
WC: I think it’s probably a joke, like most other creationist productions, but not having seen it, I can make no specific criticisms.
Thanks for the replies, both of you. <3
February 22, 2008 at 1:21 am |
Three points.
First point is that I happened upon this page by way of a search engine. Which is to say, your page here is posted on the Web for public consumption, yet there is no public response to YEC’s reasoned response. If you have the time to post a public Web page belittling “young earth creationists,” surely you can find a bit of time within a six-month window to post a public response.
Second point is, in the photo shown, are we sure the larger fish is actually swallowing the smaller fish? Could the two fossils be superimposed? As most kids who own goldfish soon learn (for that matter, anyone who’s ever fished), fish tend to do the “fish mouth” thing when “gulping” for oxygen. Regarding your “Velociraptor with its claw plunged into the belly of a Protoceratops,” if it’s what you claim it to be, then the aggressor must have been instantaneously “caught in the act,” either with no time to react to outside events or oblivious to same. Perhaps a bit more forensic investigation is in order? As to the theory that carnivory did not exist prior to the flood, it seems to me the “young earth” position does not stand or fall on that assumption, as you seem to think.
Third point: “Edenic animals were indeed vegetarian (or else naked defenseless Adam would be in big trouble!), but the Bible gives no detail on the dietary habits of animals outside of this general vicinity.” Run that theory by your secular evolutionist friends and see where it gets you. lol
March 18, 2008 at 9:39 pm |
Why do so many think that carnivory didn’t exist until the flood? Learn what you’re explaining before explaining…..
Who gave the idea it began at the flood, it began way back in EDEN! So much for this discussion. Just a misconception.
March 18, 2008 at 9:45 pm |
Of course carnivory existed prior to the deluge! No intelligent being ever said otherwise. It began after Satan rooted Eve and created children, who have always ruled the world and still do. Who didn’t know that? lol
March 18, 2008 at 9:48 pm |
Meat eating existed for approx. 1500 years before the flood.
March 18, 2008 at 11:57 pm |
My point exactly.
March 19, 2008 at 10:04 pm |
You can torture those words, or you can realize that this whole article is a misconception, because *INTELLIGENT* Creationists do not believe that carnivory began at the flood. I’ve only just noticed the guy above, ‘YEC’, has already informed you of this.
The creationist teachings are only “foolish” when looked at from TODAY’S perspective. People have many false assumptions.
Evolution is fraudulent, but you accept it because-
A) all you’ve been taught
B) you like the freedom from God (no moral absolutes etc. Do What Thou Wilt)
C) you’re compelled to support the theory for fear of losing your job peer status or grade point average
D) Too proud to admit it’s wrong
E) Only philosophy that can be used to justify certain political agendas
——–
1.Where did the space for the Uni-Verse (single-spoken-sentence ["Let-There-Be"]) come from?
——–
2.Where did the matter come from?
——–
3.Where did the laws of the Uni-Verse come from (gravity, inertia, etc.)?
——–
4.How did matter get so perfectly organised?
——–
5.Where did the energy come from to do all the organizing?
——–
6.When, where, why, and how did life come from dead matter?
——–
7.When, where, why, and how did life learn to reproduce itself?
——–
8.With what did the first cell capable of sexual reproduction reproduce?
——–
9.Why would any plant or animal want to reproduce more of its kind since this would only make more mouths to feed and decrease the chances of survival? (Does the individual have a drive to survive, or the species? How do you explain this?
——–
10.How can mutations (recombining of the genetic code) create any new, improved varieties? (Recombining English letters will never produce Chinese books)
——–
11.Is it possible that similarities in design between different animals prove they had a common designer instead of a common ancestor?
——–
12.Natural selection only works with the genetic information available and tends only to keep a species stable. How would you explain the increasing complexity in the genetic code that must have occurred if evolution were true?
——–
13.When, where, why and how did –
A) single celled plants became multi celled?
B) two and three-celled intermediates evolve?
C) single-celled animals evolve?
D) fish change to amphibians?
E) amphibians change to reptiles?
F) reptiles change to birds? (lungs, bones, eyes, reproductive organs, heart, method of locomotion, body covering, etc. are all very different!)
G) intermediate forms live???
——–
14.When, where, why, how and from what did -
A) whales evolve?
B) seahorses evolve?
C) bats evolve?
D) platypus evolve?
E) eyes evolve?
F) ears evolve?
G) hair, skin, feathers, scales, nails, claws etc. evolve?
——–
15.Which evolved first? (How, and how long, did it work without the others?)
A) The digestive system, the food to be digested, the appetite, the ability to find and eat the food, the digestive juices, or the body’s resistance to it’s own digestive juice (stomach, intestines etc.)?
B) The drive to reproduce or the ability to reproduce?
C) The lungs, the mucus lining to protect them, the throat, or the perfect mixture of gases to be breathed into the lungs?
D) DNA or RNA to carry the DNA message to the cell parts?
E) The termite or the flagellates in its intestines that actually digest the cellulose?
F) The plants or the insects that live on and pollinate the plants?
G) The bones, ligaments, tendons, blood supply, or muscles to move the bones?
H) The nervous system, repair system, or hormone system?
I) The immune system or the need for it?
——–
16.There are thousands of examples of symbiosis that defy an evolutionary explanation. Why must we teach and be taught that evolution is the ONLY explanation for these relationships??
——–
17.How would evolution explain mimicry? Did the plants and animals develop mimicry by chance, their intelligent choice, or by design?
——–
18.When, where, why, and how did man evolve feelings? Love, mercy, guilt etc. would never evolve, in the theory of evolution.
——–
19.When, where, why and how did photosynthesis evolve?
——–
20.When, where, why and how did thought evolve?
——–
21.When, where, why, how and from what did flowering plants evolve?
——–
22.What kind of evolutionist are you? Why are you not one of the other 8 or 10 kinds?
——–
23.What would you have said 75 years ago is I told you I had a living coelacanth in my aquarium?
——–
24.Is there one clear prediction of macroevolution that has proved true?
——–
25.What is so scientific about the IDEA of hydrogen gas becoming man?
——–
26.Do you honestly believe that everything came from nothing? By chance?
March 19, 2008 at 10:21 pm |
Dr Wernher Von Braun, father of American rocket and space program)
–
“One cannot be exposed to the law and order of the universe without concluding that there must be a design and purpose behind it all… To be forced to believe only one conclusion – that everything in the universe happened by chance – would violate the very objectivity of science itself… They (evolutionists [humanists]) CHALLENGE science to prove the existence of God. But must we really light a candle to see the sun? It is in a scientific honestly that I endorse the presentation of alternative theories for the origin of the universe, life, and man in the science classroom. It would be an error to overlook the possibility that the universe was planned rather than happening by chance.”
——– Dr Wernher Von Braun, father of American rocket and space program)
March 20, 2008 at 12:53 pm |
You obviously have no understanding of evolutionary perspective, or my personal beliefs. It’s also obvious you have no intention of correcting that state of affairs. Go away.
March 20, 2008 at 12:58 pm |
P. S. It’s also obvious you’re an arrogant cunt.
March 20, 2008 at 10:01 pm |
Is that the answer to those 26 questions? And I’m the arrogant 1? Going………
March 20, 2008 at 10:13 pm |
Last comment. I promise.
Egyptian hieroglyphs from 2000.B.C. describe Sirius as red. Cicero, in 50.B.C. stated Sirius was red. Seneca described Sirius as being redder than Mars. Ptolemy listed Sirius as one of the 6 red stars in 150.A.D. Today it is a white star binary. Evolutionists teach that red giant stars change into white stars over milions of years; yet Sirius is an example of a white star becoming white within the last 2000 years. Ancient astronomers recorded that Sirius glowed red in the sky, yet now it is categorized as white. Obviously the evolutionist opinions of time are wrong. Sorry about that! Bye!
March 21, 2008 at 8:59 am |
Interesting. I’ll look into that Sirius business.
March 21, 2008 at 9:10 am |
So basically you have only a few accounts, most of which are translations of a poem, with a signifiant number of contradicting reports from the same general time period that agree with what can be plainly seen with our own eyes today. And since the anomaly is easily explainable if you take into account the way astrologers observed Sirius especially closely when it was at the horizon. Interestingly, the only astronomer cited reporting Sirius as red was also an astrologer!
Who should I believe? A handful of ancient non-astronomers, plus Ptolemy (the astrologer that said the sun revolved around the earth) or my own senses, plus the entire world’s supply of astronomers, plus most ancient Western astronomers, plus all of the ancient Chinese astronomers (that not so coincidentally lacked the astrological traditions that would inspire them to observe Sirius when it’s at the horizon and looks red!)? The whole red Sirius thing is hardly evidence for YECism.
October 20, 2008 at 9:52 am |
I am an ex-theistic evolutionist. I don’t believe a word you are saying because like the atheists you agree with you don’t hve a leg to stand on. The true science in this world is the science that God created the world just the way He said it in Genesis one. Why don’t you just take Him at His word?
Moses told the truth about the 6 day creation in Exodus 20:11. Jesus Christ told the truth about the flood of Noah in Matthew 24 when he said, “As it was in the days of Noah…and the flood came and took them all away.”
I believe them, not you.
Close down your website.
October 21, 2008 at 6:01 am |
You’ll forgive me, I suspect, if I’m not inclined to shut down my site on your whim?
October 23, 2008 at 6:13 pm |
Perhaps I missed something, but I’ve never heard the argument (from AiG or anywhere else) that there was no eating of meat – for animals – pre flood. I would agree that when applied to man, Scripture is pretty clear but again, I’ve never heard the argument applied to animals also and as such, I don’t see then how this fossil becomes contradictory. Again, am I missing something?
October 23, 2008 at 8:39 pm |
Nope, it was me that missed the fact that they stopped using the argument, although, yes, this argument was once used by major creationists. I first encountered it somewhere around 1999/2000, and it was on my mind when I saw the fossil pictured above, although I had never caught on to the apparent abandonment of the argument until after writing the article.
Just to make sure the argument still existed I searched all the articles in a couple of big time creationist sites like AiG, ICR and CotW and I found at least a couple of mentions in older articles by lesser known figures and was satisfied to know that the argument is at least still out there to justify keeping the post up. The constant trickle of traffic explicitly looking for information on whether carnivory occured before the alleged Flood is also more than enough of a reason for me to keep the post up.
But yeah, I can understand, in retrospect, that it might look like a bit of a straw man.