Gitmocha Joe’s Freedom Cafe recently requested some perspective on the subject of theistic evolution.
I didn’t feel like spending a lot of effort articulating my own opinion on the subject, but since the first reply was from a rather strident critic, I felt a need to respond in defense of theistic evolution. The rest of this post is a transcript of our discussion.
I would like to chime in on behalf of theistic evolution (or thevo). I don’t have a whole lot to say, but I would like to respond to Bob.
BobXXX says…
In my opinion biological evolution has major religious implications. Evolution makes the insane of ideas of Christianity look even more insane.There are Christian biologists like Ken Miller but I don’t think Miller would ever use the words “theistic evolution”. He would never invoke God to explain the history of life, and I think he would agree that calling evolution “theistic” is as dumb as calling gravity “theistic”.
No, I’m pretty sure he would. Search for “Kenneth Miller” and “theistic evolution” and the first site that comes up is Dr. Miller’s personal site. Its description, interestingly enough, says “… of links to articles by Dr. Miller supporting theistic evolution and some articles critical of Intelligent … Resources (Kenneth R. Miller) return to: Ken Miller’s …”
BobXXX says…
When people talk about theistic evolution they are implying that supernatural magic is a mechanism of evolution. Biologists know that’s nonsense.
Well as a theistic evolutionist, I would say that’s not true. Every thevo supporter I ever met accepted the accepted mechanisms of evolution. It’s true that we accept supernatural involvement on some level, whether through providence or direct interaction, but the first one would not alter the mechanisms, and the second doesn’t necessarily alter the mechanisms. Basically, we don’t reject any of mainstream evolutionary biology’s findings. 
BobXXX says…
Only 13% of Americans agree that people developed from other animals and God did NOT guide this process. That means 87% of Americans don’t understand evolution.
That’s pretty damned condescending there, Chief. Everyone who disagrees with you only does so because they’re ignorant? Ya kinda came out of nowhere with this, too. Did you just feel a random need to rant or something? You sound bitter.
BobXXX says…
That’s disgraceful and the reason for this massive ignorance is Christianity.
Give me a break. Every theistic evolutionist I’ve ever met had a satisfactory understanding of evolution. Not to mention the thousands of scientists who hold both Christianity and evolution in high esteem. Are you blaming scientists for ignorance of evolution?
Not to mention that evolution isn’t all that highly thought of in a lot of Muslim countries, too. Do you think us Americans would have a better understanding of evolution if we were a Muslim-majority nation?
Sadly, Bob never replied, so the discussion stopped there, but I figured it was worth reproducing anyway. Hope it was some benefit to someone. Adios!
June 7, 2008 at 1:49 am |
Hello. I get google email alerts for the subject “evolution” and I was surprised to see my name. Sorry I never returned last time, but here I am again.
I’m a bit disappointed in Ken Miller if it’s really true he would use the words theistic and evolution in the same sentence. I just don’t like the idea of mixing religious ideas with science. I’m in favor of a wall of separation between religion and science, absolutely no exceptions.
Why do people talk about theistic evolution, but they never talk about theistic gravity? Neither of these two scientific facts require supernatural intervention. What’s the deal here? Why can’t the theists leave my favorite branch of science alone?
In the poll I was talking about, and I don’t remember the results exactly, but about half of Americans believe in the Genesis creation myth (how can so many people be so retarded?), and the other half accepted evolution. Unfortunately, of the half of Americans who accepted evolution, a vast majority of these people agreed with the statement “people developed from other animals and God guided this process.”
Well, something is very wrong with those people. God most certainly had absolutely nothing to do with guiding evolution, just like Mr. God has nothing to do with gravity. The only conclusion I can make is these people think evolution can’t work without the Christian God sticking his supernatural nose into it. That’s just plain nuts and it shows how hopelessly uneducated most Americans are. What’s their problem? The answer has to be their religion, Christianity. Where else could have they got the crazy idea that Mr. God guided the development of the human ape species?
You talked about the Muslim countries. In another poll of America, all of Europe, and Muslim Turkey, that asked about the acceptance of evolution, America came in next to last, just ahead of Turkey. So the Muslims are total morons and the Americans are almost as bad. I blame the breathtaking stupidity of Christianity for this disgraceful result.
There are intelligent Christians who understand and accept evolution, but why do they have to attach the adjective theistic to it when they leave gravity alone? It’s like calling a Christian garbage man a theistic garbage collector. Theology has nothing to do with garbage, and theology has nothing to do with any branch of science, including and especially evolution. Evolution is one of the strongest facts of science. It doesn’t need the God hypothesis for anything.
Sorry if I sound rather hostile towards Christianity, but I am convinced the Christian religion was the most terrible invention in history. Look at the Christian beliefs. It’s just pure insanity. The world needs to get rid of it as soon as possible. Of course the even worse Islam has to go, but the biggest threat to America right now is the Christian religion. I have lost count of the number of states where Christians are trying to get bills passed that attack the teaching of biology. If the Christians can’t learn how to respect our wall of separation between church and state, they should get out of my country.
June 9, 2008 at 9:51 am |
Hey, bob.
Given your presupposition of atheism, how can we have any knowledge at all, let alone the firm certainty to declare any position absolutely right or absolutely wrong?
For genes and memes, the only law is to replicate, right?
Cheers,
joe
June 26, 2009 at 12:43 am |
I think the term “theistic evolutionist” probably came before the term “theistic evolution” was ever used. Some people (like our good friend PZ) see Theistic Evolution as another made up mechanism meant as an alternative to Evolution as taught by mainstream science. A theistic evolutionist, on the other hand, is merely a theist who also happens to accept evolution.