Abyssal Discusses Theistic Evolution with BobXXX

Gitmocha Joe’s Freedom Cafe recently requested some perspective on the subject of theistic evolution.

I didn’t feel like spending a lot of effort articulating my own opinion on the subject, but since the first reply was from a rather strident critic, I felt a need to respond in defense of theistic evolution. The rest of this post is a transcript of our discussion.

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I would like to chime in on behalf of theistic evolution (or thevo). I don’t have a whole lot to say, but I would like to respond to Bob.

BobXXX says…
In my opinion biological evolution has major religious implications. Evolution makes the insane of ideas of Christianity look even more insane.

There are Christian biologists like Ken Miller but I don’t think Miller would ever use the words “theistic evolution”. He would never invoke God to explain the history of life, and I think he would agree that calling evolution “theistic” is as dumb as calling gravity “theistic”.

No, I’m pretty sure he would. Search for “Kenneth Miller” and “theistic evolution” and the first site that comes up is Dr. Miller’s personal site. Its description, interestingly enough, says “… of links to articles by Dr. Miller supporting theistic evolution and some articles critical of Intelligent … Resources (Kenneth R. Miller) return to: Ken Miller’s …”

BobXXX says…
When people talk about theistic evolution they are implying that supernatural magic is a mechanism of evolution. Biologists know that’s nonsense.

Well as a theistic evolutionist, I would say that’s not true. Every thevo supporter I ever met accepted the accepted mechanisms of evolution. It’s true that we accept supernatural involvement on some level, whether through providence or direct interaction, but the first one would not alter the mechanisms, and the second doesn’t necessarily alter the mechanisms. Basically, we don’t reject any of mainstream evolutionary biology’s findings.

BobXXX says…
Only 13% of Americans agree that people developed from other animals and God did NOT guide this process. That means 87% of Americans don’t understand evolution.

That’s pretty damned condescending there, Chief. Everyone who disagrees with you only does so because they’re ignorant? Ya kinda came out of nowhere with this, too. Did you just feel a random need to rant or something? You sound bitter.

BobXXX says…
That’s disgraceful and the reason for this massive ignorance is Christianity.

Give me a break. Every theistic evolutionist I’ve ever met had a satisfactory understanding of evolution. Not to mention the thousands of scientists who hold both Christianity and evolution in high esteem. Are you blaming scientists for ignorance of evolution?

Not to mention that evolution isn’t all that highly thought of in a lot of Muslim countries, too. Do you think us Americans would have a better understanding of evolution if we were a Muslim-majority nation?

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Sadly, Bob never replied, so the discussion stopped there, but I figured it was worth reproducing anyway. Hope it was some benefit to someone. Adios!

Thomas Jefferson an Evolutionist?

Because the founding fathers are considered to be among the world’s most foremost scientists, even to this day, they are often quoted by creationists to bolster their arguments. This intellectually sound tactic has met with great success and many scientists have been incited to leave liberal materialist science behind and are now conducting research for the ICR. Of course, being faithful deists our American heros would no doubt support the conclusions being drawn from their statements in favor of rejecting rationalism and replacing it with traditionalist dogmatism. Seriously.

Okay, sarcasm aside, I stumbled on a website a few weeks ago that tried to give the “list of quotes from famous creationists” thing a try in order to make creationism look a bit palatable by attaching the names of popular (almost entirely) pre-Darwinian historical figures to that belief system. Interestingly, an excerpt from a rather lengthy quote penned by Thomas Jefferson in a letter made it onto the list. I say interestingly because before I found the list I had been reading one of the site’s other articles about my own position on origins: theistic evolution. Apparently, according to this site, thevos aren’t real Christians.

However, ironically the webmaster then proceeds to use the quote below in order to affirm both the validity of creationism, and of the True Religious Faith^TM of Thomas Jefferson. That’s right. Thomas “remove all the miracle stories from the New Testament” Jefferson was a real Christian. The same guy who ignored the writings of Paul, who dismissed Christian supernatural ideas as mere “spiritualism” (and said he held “materialist” views) and declared the divinity claims about Jesus to be “Platonisms!” The author can’t plead ignorance about this either. He specifically admits that Jefferson gutted the Gospels to make his book and then calls this act of sacrelige one of Jefferson’s “little quirks.” Yep. He used those exact words to describe the defacing of our New Covenent.

Hello! You creationists claim to be the ones really sticking to the Bible and us thevos are evil liberal corrupters! Whatever happened to that quote from Revelation, y’know, the one that you say proves the Bible to be the very infallible word of God and you better not mess with it or you’re gonna get burnt? Oh, yeah, here it is:

And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

And you say that stripping away the New Testament of its most basic ideas is just a “quirk,” while condemning thevos for “adding” evolution to the Bible when we don’t have to add a jot or tittle to it! The hypocrisy is so glaring that I’m just going to let this rest here.

Now, finally here’s that quote:

I think that every Christian sect gives a great handle to atheism by their general dogma, that, without revelation, there would not be sufficient proof of the being of a God. Now one-sixth of mankind only are supposed to be Christians; the other five-sixths, then, who do not believe in the Jewish and Christian revelation, are without knowledge of the existence of God! That gives [a basis for the hypothesis]…that it is more simple to believe at once in the eternal pre-existence of the world, as it is now going on, and may forever go on, by the principle of reproduction which we see and witness, than to believe in the eternal pre-existence of an ulterior cause, or Creator of the world, a being whom we see not and know not, of whose form, substance, and mode, or place of existence, or of action, no sense informs us, no power of the mind enables us to delineate or comprehend.

On the contrary, I hold, (without appeal to revelation) that when we take a view of the universe, in its parts, general or particular, it is impossible for the human mind not to perceive and feel a conviction of design, consummate skill, and indefinite power in every atom of its composition. The movements of the heavenly bodies, so exactly held in their course by the balance of centrifugal and cent. metal forces; the structure of our earth itself, with its distribution of lands, waters, and atmosphere; animals and vegetable bodies, examined in all their minutes” particles; insects, mere atoms of life, yet as perfectly organized as man or mammoth; the mineral substances, their generation and uses; it is impossible, I say, for the human mind not to believe, that there is in all of this, design, cause, and effect, up to an ultimate cause, a Fabricator of all things from matter and motion, their Preserver and Regulator while permitted to exist in their present forms, and their regeneration into new and other forms.

We see, too, evident proofs of the necessity of a superintending power, to maintain the universe in its course and order….So irresistible are these evidences of an intelligent and powerful Agent, that of the infinite numbers of men who have existed through all time, they have believed, in the proportion of a million at least to unit, in the hypothesis of an eternal pre-existence of a Creator, rather than in that of a self-existent universe.

—Letter to John Adams, April 11, 1823

Notice something? You should have, I bolded it for you. “Regeneration into new and other forms”? Does that sound like creationism to you? Not me. To me it sounds like Thomas Jefferson held views somewhat analogous to evolution. And not just any kind of evolution, he goes out of his way to make it a theistic kind. I might have this wrong, but I don’t see any other interpretation for the bolded statement than an evolutionary one.

So… we have a creationist offering a quote from a famous dead guy instead of scientific evidence when this dead guy was a Bible vandalizer and at the same time held theistic evolutionary views which he had just previously condemned and the quote supports the exact opposite conclusion from what he was using it to support!What was this guy even thinking?